Linda Fanaras, CEO/Strategist of Millennium Agency interviews Beverly Macy, the strategic advisor and bestselling author at UCLA Anderson School of Management, speaking on branding in transformational times, NFTs, and much more! Tune in to hear these industry leaders’ thoughts on maintaining and adjusting your strategies in these changing economies.
Linda Fanaras:
My name is Linda Fanaras and I am the CEO of Millennium Agency. We are a branding, messaging and marketing strategy firm. And we’re here today to talk to Beverly Macy. She is a strategic advisor, bestselling author at UCLA Anderson and Extension, and also a pro in the NFT and Web3 world. So today I, first of all, I want to thank Beverly for coming here today, appreciate your time. And if you want to take a minute and introduce yourself, we can get right into it.
Beverly Macy:
Thank you so much, Linda. It’s great to be here and I’m really looking forward to our conversation and yes, I teach brand management at UCLA, and I work with clients and I’m really looking forward to getting into our conversation.
Linda Fanaras:
Fantastic. All right. Well, Beverly, why don’t we just get started with a really key question that I think marketers are really thinking about and businesses are as well. So, we know because of COVID, there’s been a lot of changes. And from those changes, a lot of companies took a pause back. They just wanted to see what was going to happen and they seized a lot of their marketing efforts and strategy. Then we did some additional changes and, and things started to escalate and then they were increasing their budget. Now we’re seeing additional changes in the market and unsure about the economy. And I guess my question to you is how do you feel about that? Do you think that it could negatively or positively impact their business?
Beverly Macy:
It’s a great question. And I think it’s so timely. It’s what everybody is thinking about right now and scanning the landscape to try to see what the best things to do are. I focus a lot, for instance, on the entertainment space. And, obviously during the pandemic, everybody was on Netflix and on their streaming and it was hog wild. It was, it was great for a lot of certain brands because people were a captive audience. Now people are getting back out into “real life” and traveling and business, and so there’s a change in how to reach consumers, how to reach customers and what the messaging is. So, your question of, is it a negative or a positive? I think it kind of depends on the industry. You know, some industries are doing really, really well. Travel’s having a bounce back, they couldn’t be happier. People are moving around traveling on air and trains and cars and, the hospitality industry is up. Some other industries might not be faring as well. So I think it’s really a wait and see. We hear from some economists we’re in a recession, then we hear from other economists, well, this is temporary, it’s not like any other recession. So there’s a lot of uncertainty, which is not new. Obviously, we went through the pandemic years with a lot of uncertainty. And I think we’re kind of in a wait and see, as I said, that’s, that’s what I’m feeling and seeing mostly. Now, in terms of planning for 2023, obviously companies are putting budgets together now and you know, really thinking about what is coming and I think one of the encouraging things I think that’s happening is there’s a lot of dialogue with their consumers, with their target markets, really trying to understand what the consumer wants, what do they want, what do they want to hear from their favorite brands, from their trusted brands? You know? And I think that’s a positive. We talk a lot about listen to the customer. Sometimes we don’t really do that. And right now, I think we’re back to that, back to listen to the customer, what do they want to hear? Customers don’t want to be interrupted in their- with ads. That’s a given, but how do we reach them with messaging that resonates? So, I think it’s a great question.
Linda Fanaras:
That’s a great point because I do completely agree that I feel like individuals within the marketplace are taking in information differently than they used to take in the data before. And, I hate to say it this way, but sometimes people at this point want to be behind their computer and decide whether they want to read that email or look at that email marketing or check out some ads or do their research. So, it’s a little bit of a different strategy. We see a lot of companies going back to conferences and trade shows and trying to really interact with people one-on-one, which I think is vital to the long-term marketing strategy, especially in this day and age. You really can’t get rid of that one-to-one personalization and relationship that companies have. I think my one interesting observation over the years that you know, I’ve been doing this a while, is during any downtime the first knee-jerk reaction is for companies to really cut back on their marketing and time and time again, we find that that does not work. And I just wanted to get your thoughts and feedback on that.
Beverly Macy:
It’s so great. I should invite you to speak at my class at UCLA sometime because I say those exact words to my students. I say you ask almost any CEO on the planet. What’s one of the most important things in their overall picture, and they will say amongst a number of other things, branding and the importance of communicating with their consumer. And yet, what’s one of the first things that gets cut when there’s a upheaval or disruption? Branding and marketing. It’s just, it’s almost schizophrenic, you know? So it’s really interesting that that happens. But, really good strong brands and brands that are in development and to be strong brands, can stay the course. And that’s really, really important in terms of longevity and really maintaining brand loyalty and things like that. Talking about the travel industry, the airlines are really in a terrible branding situation. At least in the U.S., almost every U.S. airline has had some kind of negativity around the customer experience, the long lines, the, the experience on the plane itself. And, and yet, if you were advising, or if I were advising Delta or United or American, we would say stay the course. Make some adjustments, et cetera, but you’ve got to stay the course. So, it’s really a great question and a good observation.
Linda Fanaras:
It’s so interesting because I do know that cutting marketing budgets initially will benefit companies. They’ll give them that short term profit that they’re looking for, that feeling, “Oh, okay. Yes, we are saving money.” But in the long term, when they did the studies, they found that those who seized marketing and those who continued eventually would see like a 25% gap in sales. And you really don’t want to lose that. And during COVID we really, and I hate to use the word lectured, but we really did lecture our clients to keep the marketing going, keep the communication. Don’t go silent because you start to lose brand awareness and recognition, and then it takes a lot longer to come back in and really get a name for yourself. So, I love talking about that subject because I think it’s such an important subject and companies should definitely keep that in mind. Do you feel like this is a good time for companies to take a look at their, as the markets are transforming, how are they positioning themselves in the market? What’s their unique selling proposition, are they really differentiating themselves because there is a lot of clutter today. You’re looking at, oh, TikTok, or you’re looking at Instagram and you’re looking at email. There are so many vehicles where there never used to be so many vehicles. So, I’m just curious your thoughts on brand positioning and how serious should companies really take that?
Beverly Macy:
Again, such a great question. The brand positioning with all of the clutter. We’ve been talking about this for quite a while, but it’s never been more strident than it is right now and confusing to the consumer. And, you were mention- I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier about one-on-one conference going and event attendance. That’s all very true, but we are going see a hybrid model going forward of digital- people are still going to be on Zoom, they’re still going to be attending conferences via virtual means, and I think we’ll be seeing both, we’re seeing it in the work from home phenomenon right now that companies are really struggling to get people back in place. Even though we all said, oh, I can’t wait to be back with my peers. And now that the reality is here, so marketers have to tune into this. They have to tune into the fact that their digital presence is going to be as meaningful or as important as the other kinds of presence that they might have. And so, what does that mean? What, where is their consumer? We always say, go where the consumer is, right? Is the consumer on TikTok all the time? Well, in some industries, they are. Is the consumer still reading emails? Well, it depends on what industry you’re in, right? And who you’re trying to reach in that industry. Are they in Snapchat or TikTok or LinkedIn? Are they consuming news? How are they doing all of these different things? And then when they come home, do they turn all of it off and go straight to streaming or what? So what are the technographics? And if we understand that, then we can start to see from a branding standpoint where we need to be and with what messaging and what our position is in that space. So for instance, there’s a lot of social justice questions that are up for brands and some brands like Nike have taken the position of, we’re going to take a position. We’re going to have a position in social justice questions, on all, in all of our communication. Other brands are, are more neutral and step back and their position is different. So again, who are we speaking to? How are we speaking to them? And then what is the messaging and what is our position?
Linda Fanaras:
Yeah. And I do think as these markets continue to get cluttered, it is important for companies to really just put a stake in the ground and say, this is my position, this is who we are. And then you can connect your audience with that position because otherwise, to be everything to everyone can be very difficult to navigate in this type of market. So I think that’s an, that’s an interesting point. So thank you on that. You know, there’s, again, there’s so many changes. There’s a lot of new audiences out there and I always say, okay, what’s the “white space” in the market. And I know that you are working on a book right now called “From PCs to NFTs,” which I think is a fantastic title, because from my perspective, it used to be like from mainframes to PCs. So now we’re going from PCs to NFTs. So, can you talk a little bit about your book? And also, I, I had some questions around how that might be able to be utilized in the marketing space and really educate our audience today.
Beverly Macy:
Oh, certainly thank you so much for asking about that. And yes, I am working on a book “From PCs to NFTs,” which is really chronicling my own career and all the different things that I’ve seen in technology throughout the years. And starting with the advent, obviously mainframes, and then into PCs, and then we went to the dot com era, then we went to the social media era, and emerging technology is a passion for me, in addition to marketing and et cetera. In 2011, I wrote a book called “The Power of Real-Time Social Media Marketing,” and it was used as a textbook and also a book to educate primarily executives about what in the world was happening with social media. And this book is really along the same vein, it’s here is something new on the horizon, it’s far off in the horizon for many of us. A lot of people are like, “Please, I don’t want to think about any more, you know, any more new things it’s too much,” but NFTs, the metaverse, Web3 – these are bubbling up in conversation in different kinds of areas. And so, I really wanted to take the education stance, which is part of my own personal brand, and really get out there and start talking to businesses about what is NFT, what is Web3, and why should anybody pay attention to it from a business standpoint? And if you are paying attention to it, what does that mean for your brand? How do you enter into something new? Very much like early social media, should I be on Facebook? You know, I’m Toyota, should we be on Facebook? I mean, those were questions that were being asked. Now it seems like, well, duh, you know, all these years later, but at the time it was very, very dicey. Twitter seems scary. “Why should we be there?” type of thing. So, I’m working on that and really putting it out there and starting the dialogue, having conversation with brands that have been clients of mine and getting a feel for where they are. Also talking to, I have the pleasure of speaking with a lot of young people because I’m in the university environment. So, I get to hear from a lot of students about what they’re thinking, what they’re paying attention to, which is clearly, helpful to know what’s coming down the pipe. So yeah, that’s where we are. And right now, I’m in the research mode. The NFT space is confounding and also very exciting. You know, so.
Linda Fanaras:
So there’s, still an audience out there that doesn’t really understand NFTs. Do you mind just touching on, what is it exactly and how would you use that in marketing?
Beverly Macy:
Yeah, it’s, it’s such a great question. And the funny thing is hardly anybody can really define this. So here we go. Right? So “NFT” stands for “non-fungible token,” which right away turns everybody off because what in the world is “fungible?” Who cares? So this is already a problem, but basically what it is, is it’s a digital receipt for a digital asset. Now, what is a digital asset? A digital asset can be art- it can be digital art. It can be music. It can be all kinds of different things that are in the digital environment, in the virtual environment. And the NFT is a receipt that I own that digital asset. And that receipt is then logged into the blockchain. And all of this gets a little bit complicated, but just know that because it’s in the blockchain, there is a permanent record of that transaction. So that ensures provenance. One of the interesting things in the NFT space is luxury brands have jumped into NFTs. Everybody from Dolce & Gabbana to Gucci to everybody you can- Tiffany, everybody you can think of. Why? Because the provenance, the fraud and all of the fake items that are out there are a huge problem for these brands, and NFTs will enable the owner to prove ownership and prove authenticity. Now that’s the hope and the prayer of what’s going to happen. So how is that working practically for brands? Well, right now it’s very experimental. Everybody is experimenting. And I’m happy to talk more about some of the things that I’m seeing. Before I do that, I’ll just finish with one final thing about zooming out and the big picture of NFTs. We talk about Web3 and what in the world is Web3? So in this vernacular, Web1 was very, very early internet. It was basically what we called the “information economy.” It was Yahoo and AOL, if you remember the old dialup days, and it was basically newspapers and magazines digitized. That’s basically what we had. We didn’t even have search yet. You know, it was, and then search comes in. Then we move to Web2, which we call the “platform economy.” And the platform economy is Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat. What’s the problem with platform economy? The emerging perception is that all of this wonderful stuff I’m creating, these beautiful pictures, these, this, all this photography, et cetera, is owned by the platform. It’s not owned by me. I don’t own my own IP, my own intellectual property. And then Web3, we call the “ownership economy,” which is this idea that not only my personal IP, but IP from the brand can be owned and transferred by me, by the individual, by the brand, versus by the giant corporation that owns all of your data. So, hope that helps.
Linda Fanaras:
That’s interesting. I find NFTs so intriguing because I do feel like a lot of people, even businesses, don’t exactly know what that means. So do you feel like the- how do you feel about the larger brands during this point in time in our economy? Do you think they’ll try to reduce the risk during this time because it’s such an emerging market or do you see them taking more advantage of it during this time?
Beverly Macy:
So that’s a really interesting question and there’s more to the NFT space than what I just talked about in that once I own my own IP, I can now sell and transfer that IP. So brands like Adidas, Adidas launched a digital shoe in December as an NFT. They made $24 million in 48 hours on that launch. This is not for anything physical. This is a digital shoe that you, what are you going to do with it? This is unbelievable when you think about it. Think about that, people paid money to buy digital products that don’t have a real-world representation. Now in the world of gaming, that’s not new; virtual goods have been sold- bought and sold forever. But here’s the thing. If I’m an owner of one of those NFTs, I can sell that for more than I paid for it. Kind of like the sneaker market, you know? There’s a big, giant sneaker market. The other thing that some brands are, are gearing up for is the inevitability, they think, of this blended universe we’re all going to all live in, which is part real life and part metaverse / Web3 / whatever that looks like. And I’m going to want to have really cool shoes when I go there. I’m going to want to have really cool sunglasses and outfits and avatars. So, in that sense, some brands are taking a risk and looking at it that way. For other brands, it’s still a head scratcher. What is in it for me really? And what’s in it for the consumer? Doesn’t this just confuse the consumer? So, we’re seeing- so I’ll, mention one more thing and then we can continue on- in the customer loyalty area, we’re also seeing a very interesting play in NFTs. Why? Because in addition to ownership, the NFT has something called a “smart contract” associated with it, and that smart contract and can enable the holder to have certain permissions. So if I buy a ticket to a soccer game and that ticket is an NFT, that NFT might allow me to get merchandise at a, at a discount. It might allow me to have a free drink. It might allow me to meet a player and get an autograph. It might allow for a number of different things. So this- and it also proves that I was there, there’s a whole bunch of people in my generation who say, “I was at Woodstock,” and nobody can really prove it or not, right? So this is the idea, “I was really at the World Cup in Barcelona,” or wherever and you would have the ability to prove that. So there are companies that are starting to experiment with the customer loyalty idea and it’s a digital receipt that has permissions associated with it.
Linda Fanaras:
It’s so interesting. And it’s such an emerging market and there is quite a bit of confusion and unknowingness around it, and it will be interesting as things start to really escalate in this space to see how companies take advantage of it and look at it. I think I’d like to go back to the messaging and the positioning and the reason I, I want to bring that up again is that we’re adding another element to technology, we’re talking about the metaverse, and a lot of people don’t even know what that is. And we have large companies that are buying real estate in the metaverse. So, it seems to me that it’s going to be more and more important for companies to really take a deep dive into their brand and assess their identity, assess their positioning, to see if it really still aligns with the market audiences that are out there for them.
Beverly Macy:
I couldn’t agree more Linda. And I think that from what I know, companies like yours are helping customers do that because it is true. If we are on this verge of something changing, even if you don’t join the change right away and- but will your competitors be there? Will your customers want to be there? Are they expecting you as a brand to have a first mover position? Or are you more of a fast follower brand that waits and sees and then moves in and your customers appreciate that because they don’t want to be led into somewhere crazy right away. So yes, who are we as a brand? It comes back to that idea of core values. What are our brand’s core values? What do we stand for? And what do our customers expect from us? And then, if we take them into the metaverse, you know, will it make sense? And Adidas taking their consumers into the metaverse makes sense for their brand. Does it make sense for, you know, everybody? Maybe yes, maybe no. But even if you’re not considering going in the metaverse, even if it’s more just about this kind of blended reality, people are going to be in, in terms of where they’re getting their news, their information, spending time for education or work is partially on the Zoom environment and partially in real life, let’s say, how do we position ourselves in that? And I think that really going back to that core value their extended values, what charities are we associated with, what foundations are we supporting, what matters to us and what matters to our customer? I think it’s absolutely critical right now, because so much is changing. The consumer’s changing, the landscape out there is changing, and the brand itself is having to go through changes. So yes, it’s perfect. And it’s, right now really makes sense, because you want to be ready for 2023. Where are we going?
Linda Fanaras:
Yeah. And I always like to encourage, companies to what I call look at the “white space” in the market. What is the space out there that really hasn’t tap- you haven’t tapped into? And how can we leverage that or capitalize on that and really do a deep dive into the company and find out, who are their audiences? How are they marketing? We all know what personas are, who are the personas and how are we positioning our products and services to really connect with these audiences? But on top of that, what haven’t we really considered? What else should we be considering? Are there any verticals out there that we should be considering? Are there product extensions that we should be considering? This is a good time to do it because as things change as we get into 2023, you really want to have a clear understanding of your brand, your positioning, and if there are additional untapped markets, “white space” markets that companies should be taking advantage of, what do you think about that then? What are your thoughts?
Beverly Macy:
I really like that. I like, I like the term “white space” too. The idea of where is there a place that we could plant the stake and say, here’s a new area for us. And it takes work to get there. You can’t just close your eyes and point it’s really, you have to really work at who are we speaking to and what matters to them, and then looking at the landscape to see opportunities and find those opportunities. And then how do we enter? You know, the market entry matters. You know, do we go in with a bang? Do we go in slowly? Do we, you know, try to get our feet wet first? What’s our, what’s our stance there? If you’re a brand like Nike, it’s expected that you’re going to do something big and bold. That’s kind of the way the brand is. Other brands, if I’m a banking brand or a, an insurance company, I might tiptoe a little bit into new areas. I may not want to make that big splash. I might want to gradually move into something because the consumer would be, you know, shocked at a great big move. So, all of those things can matter.
Linda Fanaras:
Yeah. That’s a great point. I’m always intrigued by Trader Joe’s and the reason I like to bring them up is they really spend a little money on marketing, not compared to a lot of the other grocery stores, and the way that they’ve achieved that is really by building a community of loyal, loyal customers, who live and die by that brand. So, they give you a little newsletter when you walk into the grocery store, or there’s an app that you can check out. But other than that, it’s really about customer service. It’s really about building a community and they do really target and appeal to that younger demo. And, what do you think about taking that sort of totally different strategy on just building those relationships?
Beverly Macy:
Great example, another one out here in California is In-N-Out Burger. The same kind of idea that there’s this, this wild following and strident defense of the brand. “No, Five Guys,” “No, In-N-Out,” you know, so it’s really a big deal. I think it’s fascinating. And it brings me also in mind of something that’s happening in the NFT universe. Interestingly enough, is this concept of community. I think one of the outcomes of the pandemic years is community, the desire for community more than the desire to necessarily physically be in the same space. The idea that I have an affinity with others, what we used to call in marketing, “just like me,” you know? The “just like me” group, which is, they think like me, they like, they love this brand for the reasons I love this brand, and therefore we’re connected. You know, in sports there’s a lot of that, you wear your Boston Red Sox hat in Boston, where you are, and automatically you, if you see somebody across the room with that, a t-shirt on, you’re connected, there’s a sense, you know? So sports really knows how to capture that and really build it, so I think it’s fascinating to think about how we do that.
Linda Fanaras:
Well, I just want to take a minute and wrap it up. Beverly, thank you so much for speaking with me today. It was fantastic to have you, you provided a substantial amount of great insights, and I think anybody that is interested in learning about NFTs should definitely check out her book when it’s released, “From PCs to NFTs.” We covered a couple quick things: Make sure you don’t cut back on your marketing during times like this, always take a look at your positioning and your unique selling propositions to make sure that your company is still aligning, and also start to think about the white space in the market and how to capitalize on that and I think that you would be ready to move into 2023. So, thank you again. This is Linda Fanaras, the B2B Brand strategy podcast.
