In this episode of the B2B Brand180 Podcast, Linda Fanaras sits down with sales leadership expert and author Todd Caponi to challenge one of the biggest problems in B2B sales today: broken pricing and negotiation practices. They unpack why traditional discount-driven sales tactics are eroding trust, slowing deals, and training buyers to believe the price is never really the price.
The conversation explores Todd’s “Four Levers Negotiating” framework and how sales teams can replace reactive discounting with a transparent, structured approach built around volume, payment timing, commitment length, and deal predictability. You’ll hear practical insights on why quarter-end discounts often backfire, how transparency accelerates trust, and what leaders can do to create more confident, collaborative negotiations that benefit both buyers and sellers.
00:01:24 Why Traditional Sales Negotiation Needed to Be Challenged
00:04:23 What Happens When Salespeople Get Nervous at the Finish Line
00:07:13 Creating a Structured Approach to Proposal and Negotiation
00:10:05 Replacing Reactive Discounting with Strategic Decision-Making
00:12:46 Taking Emotion Out of Pricing Conversations
00:13:21 How to Respond When Buyers Push for Bigger Discounts
00:16:52 Transparency, Trust, and Collaborative Negotiation
00:18:37 Rapid Fire Questions
https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddcaponi
Linda’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindafanaras/
Millennium Agency: Brand Strategy | Marketing | Web Design: mill.agency
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@millagencydev.wpenginepowered.com/
Linda’s Books:
Claim Your White Space
https://www.amazon.com/CLAIM-YOUR-WHITE-SPACE-CRITICAL-ebook/dp/B0CLK8VLYV
Passion + Profits: Fueling Business And Brand Success
https://www.amazon.com/Passion-Profits-Fueling-Business-Success-ebook/dp/B0CLLDDSNX/
[00:00:00] Linda: Welcome to the B2B Brand 180 Podcast where we just don’t talk about growth, we challenge the assumptions behind it. I’m Linda Fanaras, CEO of Millennium Agency, and your host today. I’m being joined today by Todd Caponi and Todd is a multi-time C-level sales leader, a behavioral science expert, and the author of The Transparency Sale and the Transparent Sales Leader, and his newest book, Four Levers Negotiating.
Todd, it’s great to have you here.
[00:00:35] Todd: It’s great to be here. That little countdown music up my, uh, it was starting to groove a little bit.
[00:00:39] Linda: You like that? Yeah, I know, right? Just, uh, makes it a little bit more exciting. Right.
[00:00:45] Todd: There we go. Yep.
[00:00:46] Linda: So let’s get started. So, B2B pricing is broken. It’s not because pricing is hard, but it’s because we’ve kind of made it unbelievable sometimes.
So for years we’ve trained buyers to think, you know, no one actually pays full price for anything. Everybody wants a deal. But today we’re going to talk about a couple different strategies that you’ll be sharing to individuals today. So we’ll learn where buyers can access reviews, benchmarks, even AI-driven pricing insights.
That game doesn’t feel just outdated. It destroys credibility. So Todd, your work takes a direct aim at this. I know that. So what made you decide this is needed to be challenged now, and what is like, why is it now?
[00:01:24] Todd: Well, it’s funny when you say now, because for anybody watching behind me, I, I’m a collector of sales history. Maybe the only person on the planet that’s ever said that, but I’ve got books from late 1800s, early 1900s. Both phones, LPs, magazines, like it smells like your grandma’s basement in here.
But, you know, one of the things that’s funny to me is I’m holding a book right now. This is from 1910 written by Thomas Herbert Russell. It’s called Salesmanship Theory and Practice, and it’s funny, 116 years ago, one of the headlines in one of the chapters says, buyers know more nowadays. Like, that cracks me up. It’s 116 years ago, and we’re still saying those things today.
He goes on to say that, you know, the knowledge of buyers is increased, and they’re no longer disposed to pay what is asked of them unless persuaded in their minds that the sellers regulate their prices on some sound basis. Some sound basis.
And so why is it that in 1910 we could get away with that? That was always the case. Like we knew, we as human beings, we know that if we think somebody’s getting a better deal, we’re coming after that deal, right? We don’t have confidence that the price is the price, then we’re going to start pecking away at it.
And when I look at 2026, like you said, we’ve got the rise of AI exposing people’s pricing models. We’ve got peer groups that are connecting and talking about like, “Hey, what are you paying for them? What do you, what did you ask for? What did you get?” The sharing economy. There’s technologies out there that are exposing this stuff.
I just don’t think that it’s any longer sustainable to have every one of your customers paying a different amount based on how well or poorly you negotiated it. I’ll add this other piece, like you said, that like nobody believes that the price is the price. It’s funny when you think about that “some sound basis” that Thomas Herbert Russell said that like you would never go to the grocery store and fill your cart and go to the cashier and be like, um, I have a budget issue. I need 20% off. They’d be like, buy 20% less jackass like, it doesn’t even make sense. Right?
[00:03:41] Linda: Right.
[00:03:42] Todd: Because we make that decision to buy because we think the price is based on something. In the business-to-business world we’ve established over many years that from the minute we propose, like the word propose, proposal is literally defined as a suggestion. We’re basically going, here you go. And then the minute we start getting asked for anything, we start giving. And so, I think the B2B world has created a “some sound basis” issue. Yeah. And I think there’s a pretty simple way to fix that, that we can talk about here, but it almost has to happen now. I’m probably biased, but I just don’t think what we’re doing… is sustainable.
[00:04:23] Linda: Yeah. So, you brought up a really good point, and I guess I’m just trying to determine like at that moment of a deal when it actually is like seeming like it’s going to happen. You know, it seems like that’s when a salesperson changes, right?
[00:04:39] Todd: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:39] Linda: They kind of hedge and they like obscure and they’re like flat out say things that maybe are true or they give in too much. So, can you just talk a little bit about like what happens, what’s causing that sort of, do they get nervous? Are they afraid they’re going to lose the deal?
[00:04:55] Todd: Yeah, I mean that was really the core of all of this happened back when I had gotten my first leadership promotion. And yet, growing up, like sales for all of you, when you’re trying to sell, really the right lens is obviously to focus on customers achieving optimal outcomes, right? Like you’re supposed to be a partner to them. Build a relationship.
And then you’re right. You know, we get to the goal line, the customer says yes, and we’re like, all right, subconsciously, I’m going to start lying to you now. Not going to tell you what a good deal is. You’ve got to figure that out, right. In the B2B world, many people are learning from former FBI hostage negotiators, like I’m releasing hostages from a bank, heist techniques, or it’s a big labor agreement. Or we’re trying to negotiate a settlement between warring nations and going, let’s apply that to your software purchase. Or you’re buying some bowling balls like it’s, it’s bananas, right?
But that’s what we do. We change personalities. We start focusing on our own outcomes. Because that’s the trigger when you said yes, now it’s about me and my outcomes.
[00:06:00] Linda: Yeah.
[00:06:00] Todd: And so, yeah, we get nervous, we get anxious, we think we’re going to lose the deal. It’s so close. Right? And so that’s when the lying begins. And like I said, how can we have every customer paying a different amount based on how good or bad you were at negotiating it? I just think that gets exposed here in the short term.
[00:06:20] Linda: Yeah. And that’s actually a great point, because I think even from a buyer’s perspective, they’re thinking, Hey, if I don’t push back, if I don’t ask for a deal, then I’m getting, you know, excuse my language screwed, or I’m overpaying, or whatever the case may be. And it just seems like that is the thought process behind all that. And do you know why that occurs?
[00:06:40] Todd: If you went and you’re buying a car?
[00:06:42] Linda: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Todd: Like you know that if you don’t get something, you’re going to walk out of there feeling pretty crappy about something.
[00:06:49] Linda: Right.
[00:06:50] Todd: That’s just human to human. And I believe the B2B world is the same way that until we feel that we are getting the best deal possible given our circumstances, and we are paying the same or less than every other customer under similar circumstances. Just inherently as human beings, we don’t want to feel like we got a bad deal.
[00:07:12] Linda: Right.
[00:07:13] Todd: And so what I advocate for is a structured approach to the way you present, propose, and negotiate your deal that’s based on the things that drive every B2B company in the world. It creates a foundation, a sound basis, but it provides the flexibility around the things that are valuable to both organizations.
[00:07:30] Linda: Right. No, great point. So how does that get into play? You know, we’ve got this push pull relationship. We’ve got a sales guy that starts hedging. We’ve got the buyer that’s like, cut me a deal. I mean, what does that structure actually look like?
[00:07:44] Todd: The book is called Four Levers Negotiating because every for-profit company in the world, your business model, probably your pricing model is based on four things. That’s what makes it easy but powerful because it’s empathetic, right? The people that you’re, it’s the things that drive their organizations too.
And those four things, number one is volume. So your pricing is probably based on how much stuff the customer’s buying. Products, technology, services, hours, locations, bowling balls, whatever. But like more is better than less. You probably have tier discounts based on you buying more, so that’s number one.
Number two is the timing of cash or how fast the customer pays for your stuff.
[00:08:28] Linda: Okay.
[00:08:29] Todd: Your pricing is probably based on some, let’s say it’s upfront, annual net 30 payments or something like that, and that every for-profit company in the world would prefer you to pay faster versus slower. So faster, good, slower, bad.
Number three is the length of commitment, or how long you commit to our products, technology, services, whatever it is, longer, better than shorter, and that’s probably reflected in your pricing, but organizationally, you have more value from longer commitments than shorter commitments.
And then number four is the timing of the deal, or essentially deal predictability. Every organization thrives when it can predict revenue, predict so that investors have confidence, predict so that they can make the right resource investments, predict so that they can resource what you’re going to buy.
And so volume, timing of cash, length of commitment, timing of the deal. What I advocate for is you establish your pricing based on those four things. You communicate that early, you propose it that way clearly, and then literally every concession request that comes up on behalf of a customer, you can go back to those four.
If you want, you could commit to more. You could pay us fast, commit longer, help us forecast. You want to pay slower? Cool. Your pricing’s based on net 30 upfront, annual. If you want to pay slower, you can, but something else needs to be adjusted to make up for it. You can literally, it’s the simplest, stupidest thing in the world. Right? But it creates that sound basis and it gives you security around those things. Yes.
[00:10:03] Linda: Yeah. It gives you structure. Yeah. What happens, I think, is discounting is what a reaction, you know? The first thing is like, oh boy, let me cut you a deal. Okay, I think I can get you a discount. Let me talk to my boss. But it’s not that you’re taking this model and you’re replacing the structure. So like you said, it’s not a reaction anymore. You’re actually making a decision based on the levers, is what I’m hearing you say. So those levers can be chosen to, whether it’s, like you said, more volume, faster cash, longer commitment, maybe it’s deal predictability. So there’s no question, there’s no games, there’s no enough, and you explain this to your prospects. Is that correct?
[00:10:40] Todd: Exactly. Cards face up.
[00:10:41] Linda: Yeah.
[00:10:42] Todd: It creates that sound basis, right? That when you walk in, and what you just said something that was really the reason that this came up is back in 2008, I had gotten promoted into my first revenue leadership role. This was a big deal. The rep gets word from the customer that, Hey, we want to move forward with you, we’ve got to do something about the price and the commercial terms. And the rep was immediately like, I’ve got to call my manager.
And the buyer from the customer was like, you know what? We’re not playing the car dealer game. Whoever your manager is, get them on a plane. Let’s get in a room. And so that’s essentially what started this. I then walked into this room and they had their whole procurement team ready to kick my butt, like one of those tear ’em up negotiations and I’m like, I’m terrible at this.
I had had a conversation with my CFO week earlier where he was sharing, Hey, our business is driven by how much people buy, how fast they pay, how long they commit, and then predictability or when they sign. And so I started the conversation nervously like, Hey, can I share the four drivers of our business?
And then they asked for a massive discount and I was like, wait, remember those four things I wrote? Maybe we can use those as a path to get you as close as possible because our pricing’s based on those four and the whole fists up, the drool, like that went away, and instead of it being customer vendor, it became a bunch of people sitting at the table collaborating around the things that really drive both of our businesses.
We walked out of the room with them paying for a whole three-year deal up front, and they helped us predict our business. They got part of the way to the discount they wanted. We got value for every dollar we gave away, but the most important thing.? Is that anxiety, that lying, that hostage negotiating technique, word art, psychological tricks that we play all went away.
And I was like, wait, that was easy. That felt good. We built trust to the goal line. Maybe I’m onto something. That was 16 years ago, so it took me this long to write the book on it.
[00:12:46] Linda: Yeah. You know what’s great about it actually, now that we’re, you know, you’ve taken the emotion out of everything. Before, it’s always an emotional thing. It’s like, oh, am I getting, you know, taken advantage of? But no, it’s just like, this is the way it works. You know, pick and choose. You really, you’re almost putting it back in their court because you’re saying, Hey, you decide if you want a bigger commitment, I can get you a bigger discount. If you pay faster, I’ll give you a bigger discount.
So let’s say, let’s pressure test it a little bit. So let’s say we have a buyer and they’re like, we need a 30% discount. You know, what does like a salesperson say to that next?
[00:13:21] Todd: Step one on all of this is, let’s not forget to be human beings. You just said 30%.
So what I would ask is, tell me about the 30%, right? Is that a budget issue? Is it a cash flow issue. Is it a perceived value issue? Like just have a conversation. In many cases, the analogy I often make is like when I’m teaching this, a lot of times if like I’m at a kickoff or a sales kickoff.
I’ll ask the audience like, how many of you when you checked into the hotel here, so raise your hand, if you asked the person checking you in, if there were any upgrades available. And like, you know, 10 hands go up. Like, how many of you actually got said upgrade? None of their hands go up. And then I said, why did you ask, and was there ever a moment where you thought, if I don’t get this, I’m not going to stay here? And they’re like, well, no, and I asked because I might get it.
[00:14:16] Linda: Right.
[00:14:17] Todd: So we’ve got to remember the human element of this is understanding where’s the 30% coming? Like be humans. Always step one.
[00:14:24] Linda: Yeah.
[00:14:24] Todd: And understand like why are they asking? Why didn’t you ask for 60% off?
[00:14:28] Linda: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Todd: Step two then is to take a step back and educate them again around your pricing model.
[00:14:34] Linda: Yeah.
[00:14:34] Todd: They’re like, alright, cool. Like you need 30% off. Great. Just by way of education. Our pricing model is really driven by four things. Volume, how much you buy, timing of cash, how fast you pay, length of commitment, how long you commit, and then this mutual alignment around timing.
Maybe we can go through the four of those and see if we can get you a little closer. And then step three is to go through each one, all four. If you need 30% off, you can actually gain economies of scale by committing to more or, if it’s a dollar amount, maybe you’re buying too much stuff and we need to lower that. Like the grocery store analogy.
[00:15:08] Linda: Yeah.
[00:15:09] Todd: If there’s an opportunity to accelerate payment, that’s something we’re willing to pay you for. If you can mutually align around timing, there’s value in our ability to predict. You go through them, see how close you can get, and if the answer is they can’t do any of them, then sorry. Like, I mean, our price is our price.
[00:15:25] Linda: Right.
[00:15:26] Todd: And it becomes a conversation, collaborative sound basis building, confidence building, anxiety goes away. One of my large clients, so as I was negotiating a big deal to do a bunch of workshops for a company, I sent them my contract. They added a paragraph into it early, and the paragraph is, it’s called Most Favored Nation (MFN) language.
But essentially what it is, is the customer writes: Todd, we need you to guarantee that we are paying the same or less than every other customer that is buying a similar package. So most sales reps, organizations, they’d look at that and be like, no. because it literally has a, we reserve the right to audit.
And so they literally, when they put this paragraph in there, like, Todd, sorry, we’ve got to have this paragraph in here. And I looked at it and I was like, no, that’s cool. And they’re like. That’s cool? Like, well, yeah, your pricing’s based on these four things. The answer is always yes. You’re paying the exact same amount as anybody else that’s investing in the same stuff.
And it will always be that case. You know, my pricing goes up over time, hopefully, but, you know, as of this moment, absolutely. They literally were like, well, we don’t need to negotiate anymore. Signed. And so like you, you’re literally, you’re building that confidence, but you speed your close cycle too because they’re not keeping picking at you trying to get at more because, you just proved to them and you put it in writing that the price is the price based on the four levers.
[00:16:52] Linda: Yeah. And I think to your point where you’re not kind of negotiating, going back and forth, maybe fighting, creating those negative emotions, it’s so clear and cut and transparent that they probably feel good about it. Like they, like that just takes that whole component away. So it’s like, okay, we, we almost worked on this together.
[00:17:12] Todd: Whole point. It’s transparent. I, I’ve got so many analogies that I could share, but I’ll say a couple of things. Number one is just remember that the minute you give away anything for free is the minute you tell the customer the price isn’t the price, right? And now you load everything down and they come after more, right?
Like, if I’m walking my dogs and I find a $20 bill under a rock, I want to get the, get done, right? Like, go get the dog, I want to get back inside. It’s cold, it’s rainy. But once I find that $20, I’m like, I’m no longer cold or wet. I want to find like, is there more money here now?
[00:17:48] Linda: Yeah, right.
[00:17:49] Todd: But the same thing happens the minute a customer even says, Hey, uh, we need net 60 payment terms instead of net 30. And we kind of Tommy Boy and go okey dokey.
[00:17:59] Linda: Yeah.
[00:17:59] Todd: We’ve now told the customer that, hey, our price wasn’t really based on net 30. What else can they be asking for? We lose leverage.
And so if you always go back to the four. And just go alright, you want to pay slower? Cool. Our pricing’s based on net 30, we can adjust some other stuff like commit to another year. We pay you in the form of slower payment terms. That’s cool. Right? And the lever, they all move and, just stop giving stuff away for free, especially those painful, fake quarter end discounts.
[00:18:29] Linda: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Todd: Those are the worst way to lose leverage. Lose confidence that your price is your price, and literally slow down your deals.
[00:18:37] Linda: Alright. One negotiation myth leaders still believe?
[00:18:41] Todd: That quarter end discounts accelerate purchases. They slow them down.
[00:18:46] Linda: Perfect. Most misunderstood part of pricing.
[00:18:51] Todd: The foundational element of pricing confidence. I believe that we are missing a huge opportunity to drive revenue because we have not taught individuals to deliver pricing with confidence.
[00:19:05] Linda: Perfect. What’s the biggest mistake sales teams make today?
[00:19:08] Todd: That they can create fake urgency by creating a discount. It literally does the opposite.
[00:19:15] Linda: Right. And every time a discount is given, what is actually happening here?
[00:19:21] Todd: Well, we are eroding confidence and trust that our price is actually our price, and we are inviting the customer to ask for more.
[00:19:30] Linda: And what’s one word that defines negotiation today?
[00:19:33] Todd: Transparency is my one word for what the future of negotiation should be.
[00:19:39] Linda: Yeah. Awesome. You know, this sort of reframes everything when it comes to pricing, sales, negotiation, restore that integrity that I think a lot of salespeople lose during their, you know, career. So you’re actually negotiating as a system, so you’re building more trust and I think it just makes it all around much, much better.
So where can they get the book and where can they connect with you?
[00:20:03] Todd: Yeah, so the book is available anywhere you get your books in any format. Unfortunately, my publisher didn’t have me narrate it this time, so it’s a different narrator. Okay. My first few books I got to narrate.
Toddcaponi.com is a good place. I share a lot of my nerdery there. LinkedIn, Todd Capone, follow along or if you connect, let me know where you heard me. And then my hobby is sales history. So if any of you are interested in that, I just unload via the Sales History Podcast, just 15 to 20 minute monologues where I research a topic from as far back as the Roman Empire on sales, and share what I’ve learned and a lot of people seem to dig it, so you can check that out.
[00:20:43] Linda: That’s awesome. That’s great. And then the name of the books?
[00:20:45] Todd: Four Levers Negotiating is the new one. My most popular one’s my first one, The Transparency Sale. And then the Transparent Sales Leader. It’s not really about being a transparent sales leader, it’s actually a framework for revenue leadership, optimized by science on a bed of transparency. So if you’re just looking to create a structure for revenue leadership, it’s a good place to check out.
[00:21:05] Linda: That’s awesome. Great. Thank you so much, Todd.
And to our audience today, if you found this podcast valuable and you got some things out of it, don’t just listen, apply it to your day-to-day working and also we would love for you to like, share, comment, or subscribe, and let’s just keep raising the standard when it comes to B2B leadership and sales. And if you’re ready for your own brand 180, please visit mill.agency and you can connect with me on lindafanaras.com and we’ll see you in the next episode.
