In this episode of the B2B Brand180 Podcast, Linda Fanaras interviews Jenna Hannon, founder and CEO of Hatter, an AI search agency helping brands increase visibility in Google and AI-generated answers. Together, they explore how AI is reshaping search, why traditional SEO strategies are no longer enough, and what businesses need to do to stay discoverable in the new era of AEO.
Jenna shares practical insights on the differences between SEO and AEO, building content that AI platforms actually cite, and measuring success beyond traditional search rankings. You’ll hear actionable strategies for improving AI search visibility, creating content that aligns with how buyers search today, and positioning your brand to compete as search continues to evolve.
01:02 Why Brands Are Losing Google Traffic in the AI Era
01:32 SEO vs. AEO: What Most Agencies Are Getting Wrong
02:14 Building Content That AI Search Actually Recommends
03:45 How AI Chatbots Are Changing the Customer Journey
08:32 The First Steps Every CEO Should Take with AEO
11:34 Measuring AEO Success and Staying Ahead of Competitors
12:10 How to Audit and Improve Your AI Search Visibility
13:10 Rapid-Fire Questions
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennahannon/
Linda’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindafanaras/
Millennium Agency: Brand Strategy | Marketing | Web Design: mill.agency
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mill.agency
Linda’s Books:
Claim Your White Space
https://www.amazon.com/CLAIM-YOUR-WHITE-SPACE-CRITICAL-ebook/dp/B0CLK8VLYV
Passion + Profits: Fueling Business And Brand Success
https://www.amazon.com/Passion-Profits-Fueling-Business-Success-ebook/dp/B0CLLDDSNX/
Linda:
Some brands are watching their Google traffic drop by half, not because they got worse, it’s because it’s the way people search today, and most companies haven’t really caught up. So my guest today built her business around this exact shift. So stick around because we’ll be covering how to optimize for the new Google. Welcome back to the show. I’m Linda Fanaras. My guest today is Jenna Hannon. She’s the founder and CEO of Hatter. They are an AI search agency that helps brands get found first in Google and in AI answers. She was the first marketing hire at Uber Eats and has worked as a fractional CMO from Multisensor AI, Form Kitchens. Hi Jenna, welcome. It’s great to have you here. I’m excited to dive into this topic. It keeps coming up and I think people are really confused, so today we’ll be able to clear up a few things.
Jenna:
Thanks, Linda. Glad to be here.
Linda:
Yeah, great. So let’s get started. Some brands are seeing Google traffic drop by up to 50%. So is that real and what’s actually driving that?
Jenna:
Yes, it is real. So we’re seeing it across the board with clients. We’re seeing both impressions drop significantly and actual traffic to your website. And what’s been impacting that is AI. So if you’ve been on Google lately, you’ve probably noticed that more of the real estate in Google has been taken up by AI overviews, which means that all of the listings are being pushed down, which is going to impact both your impressions in Google search and your click-through, which is traffic.
Linda:
A lot of agencies today claim that they do AEO, and you said most of them are just SEO agencies with a new label. Can you explain to the audience what the real difference is and what do they have to do to really be providing AEO?
Jenna:
Yes, absolutely. So we are actually an AEO native agency. So we started a couple years ago during the shift. We weren’t an SEO agency before that, but most agencies in the space are SEO agencies that have now rebranded to doing AEO or answer engine optimization, which is helping you show up in AI. It is slightly a different game. So when we do an audit, we will see that brands that have been dominant in SEO for years are now not showing up compared to their competitors in AI search. So the strategy of how you show up is different. And let me say a few concrete things of what these SEO agencies were doing in the past. So a lot of SEO agencies were doing website technicals. So a lot of the package that you’re buying from an SEO agency is they’re going to come on my website, they’re going to do the technicals, they’re going to do on-page optimizations.
A lot of those best practices no longer app, especially when it comes to website technicals. Of course, your website still needs to load and there’s still the basics, but most of AI search is about content. And so the content on your website is what’s being picked up. It’s what is training the LLMs and that is now what’s being cited in AI answers. So that changes your SEO strategy fundamentally. If your package from your agency is all about website technicals and on-page optimization, that’s actually not going to work towards AI search. So you want an agency that knows how to build a strategy and the tactics towards AI search, not SEO.
Linda:
Right. That’s a great point. So what would be a couple of those tactics?
Jenna:
Yeah, on the AI search side. So as I mentioned around content, so what we see in the data is when we do an AI visibility audit, so this is saying, okay, how often does your brand show up in AI? So we’re basically running simulations and we are typing in the prompts and we’re doing this thousands of times to see how often your brand shows up compared to your competitors. What we see is that the citations are often coming from first party content. What that means is your website. So I think there’s a lot of talk right now about all of the different places that you need to show up in order to move the needle in AI search. I hear a lot about Reddit or LinkedIn, but really we see that websites are showing up in industries and competitor sets. So the content on your website is the foundation.
So if your website is not teaching LLMs who you are, what you do, why you’re better than your competitors, you’re likely not going to show up in AI answers. So the first step in terms of tactics is building out all of that content on your website and making sure that it’s consistent in messaging. And it’s no longer those SEO tactics where it’s very long pages targeting keywords. The content needs to be very specific about your business. So the very first thing we do tactically with clients is we build out a resource strategy of what content needs to exist on your website that will be recommended in the AI answers that you care about.
Linda:
So that’s a great point because I’ve been doing this for a while. So on the SEO side, it used to be just implement keyword or whatever the case may be tags and things like that. And then it went to sort of long form and then it sort of backed off into not so important. And now we’re kind of back into, it doesn’t sound like it should be long form from what I’m hearing. It sounds like it should be very specific. So can you differentiate for the audience what is really important? Is it being specific to the offering and then including some of the key factors that AI is looking for or is it still long content but it just needs to be adjusted?
Jenna:
It’s more the latter of what you’re saying. So it’s building out content that’s commercial. So when I say commercial, it’s educating both the LLMs and your prospects exactly what you do along that buyer journey. So let me give you an example of this. A common piece along the buyer journey is comparing you to your competitors. So a piece of content that you likely want on your website is actually comparing you to your websites on all the things you know that your prospects care about. That could be feature level, it could be pricing, it could be differentiation in positioning, but that is a commercial request that someone is making in ChatGPT when they are researching a solution that you want to show up in.
Linda:
Got it. Okay. Marketers don’t understand a lot of different things like the AI chatbots or ChatGPT or Perplexity and Gemini and how all these things actually interact with SEO. And I don’t know if there’s a way that you can share how that process might work on the backend.
Jenna:
Yeah, such a good question. So there still is an SEO component. So when you were typing in a question to ChatGPT, for example, that LLM is still likely going to run a real-time search. So 60% of the time when you’re asking ChatGPT something, it’s going to do a real-time search to come up with an answer. The rest, so the other 40% is the model being trained every three to six months. So what information is on the internet when the model is trained is going to show up in the answer. So there’s still an SEO component to AI search. The difference is the real-time search is going to be very specific. The way that users use AI is different than how they use Google. So when you go to Google, you’re used to typing in a keyword. It can be fairly broad and you’re getting a list of links that you’re going to go through.
When you’re in AI, when you’re going to ChatGPT, you’re asking something much more specific. It’s not keyword-based. And so you want to make sure that your content is answering all those specific questions that your user has throughout the journey because now what they’re doing, instead of going to Google and going through a list of links based on a keyword, they are now going to ChatGPT and doing full research in a conversation with an AI chatbot.
Linda:
That’s a great point. So if you actually had five minutes with a CEO who had zero AEO knowledge whatsoever, what would you tell them to do first?
Jenna:
Absolutely. So the steps of what they should do first is actually quite easy. The first thing you’re going to do is you’re going to go to an AI chatbot and you’re going to tell it your website and you’re going to say, “What are the top commercial questions that my prospects likely have that they would type into ChatGPT? Give me 50 to a hundred of those questions that my prospects will likely ask about my solution or my business that would surface a result that would recommend a company or a brand. Once you have those list of prompts, you’re going to know your business better than anyone else. So you’re going to go through those prompts and say, we know how our customer buys. We’ve been in business for a long time. We understand our customers. And you’re going to go through that list and make sure it’s actually the right questions.
Once you have your final list, that turns into your content plan. You need to make sure that the content you develop for marketing answers those questions and you want to answer every single one of them. It can start with content on your website, but it also needs to extend to all of the content that you create. So we’re kind of back to marketing 101. We’re down the customer journey. I actually like this better than SEO because there’s not a lot of hacks. You’re not trying to mine for keywords that are so far from your core business. You’re actually just going back to your business and educating your users. I would say the big thing that we find makes the most difference in once you are executing that content to answer those questions is making sure you are very clear on how you are different or better than your competitors.
So this is back to marketing positioning. So you need to be very clear and very consistent because AI answers are very good at understanding industries, getting into niche industries, and then recommending based on the differences between the competitors in those industries.
Linda:
That’s great advice. And I do have a question. Are you telling the audience they should put those answers in a blog, in the actual content, in a Q&A that sits on a separate page? Any preference or it just doesn’t matter?
Jenna:
It doesn’t really matter. There’s some tactics that will work better than others, but just having those answers on your website is what’s important. So if that’s updating your homepage and your product pages, that’s going to help move the needle. If you’re building a knowledge base or FAQ, that will help move the needle. If you’re putting these in blogs and answering them through individual blog posts, that will also move the needle.
Linda:
Yep, that’s great. And how should companies really measure their ROI? Is it just leads that are coming in? Is it quality of leads?
Jenna:
So it’s all about leads. So the way that we often measure with clients on the B2B side is how many of your prospects on an inbound phone call are mentioning they found you on ChatGPT or Cloud or Perplexity. That’s really the best way to measure.
Linda:
Yeah. And then how does your product address some of the challenges that are out there today?
Jenna:
Yeah, so our product is exactly that workflow. So the first step is auditing. So adding your website and your competitors. And then we actually run that for you. We run the questions that we think your customers will ask, and then we send those to you to review. And then you can see how often you are showing up in those queries versus your competitors. Once you know that, that tells you, oh, where are the gaps? Where are we not showing up in places that we should be that our competitors are showing up? So then our tool actually helps you create content. We have a service business as well where we do the content piece for you. So we’re creating fully AEO optimized content, but we also have users that use the tool self-serve. And then you’re publishing that directly to your website. So you can do that in our tool or on the service side we’re publishing to the website.
You’re measuring how often that content is being cited or how often your overall visibility as a brand is lifting in AI answers.
Linda:
Great. So Google in five years, do you think it’ll be bigger or smaller?
Jenna:
Bigger.
Linda:
One brand doing AEO right today that you can put your finger on?
Jenna:
One of our clients is doing very well are called Swimply. They have almost 90% visibility.
Linda:
Okay. And if Google traffic hits zero tomorrow, what’s the first move?
Jenna:
Your website.
Linda:
That’s phenomenal. So what’s the biggest myth about AI search that you wish could actually go away?
Jenna:
Reddit.
Linda:
That’s interesting. One word for what most agencies are getting wrong about AEO.
Jenna:
I need two. It would be multi-channel. A lot of AI search agencies right now are selling, we’re going to do multiple channels for you, which is going to be more effective in increasing your visibility in the AI chatbots. Unless you execute those channels well, it’s not going to move the needle. And for most businesses, that’s too many channels. So what I mean by those channels is they’re recommending that businesses start investing in YouTube, LinkedIn content, Reddit content. And for most businesses, that’s really expensive. And some of the AI search agencies are selling it as a reasonable price point, but when we see the output of the content that they’re putting across those channels, it’s not good. It’s far better as a business to pick one or two channels and truly invest in it. So this is back to classic marketing. So you don’t want to pick a channel just for AEO.
You want to pick that channel because your audience is genuinely watching YouTube and you have great content to share there. That’s why we always go back to and say, “Hey, is your foundation, which is your website in order and do you understand your positioning and is your content educating your prospects? If that’s not done, let’s start there. And then we can start thinking about the next channels because running all these channels at once poorly is not going to move the needle.
Linda:
Fantastic. Any major big takeaways you’d like to share with the audience before we wrap up today?
Jenna:
I think the big thing to share is that there’s a big opportunity here. So for us as an agency, we look at a lot of brands and anytime there’s a new frontier in marketing, it’s about those who go and act on it first. And so we very much see in industries incumbents being beaten by smaller players that are investing in AEO earlier and faster. I think it’s actually exciting. It is adding a little bit more work, but it’s a big opportunity for businesses.
Linda:
Thanks for coming on. This was a great conversation. I think it’s insightful. It’s new information. So it’s great to share that with the audience today. I would love for you to share how they can get in touch with you.
Jenna:
Absolutely. So they can visit us at gethatter.ai or reach out to me on LinkedIn. So I’m Jenna Hannon on LinkedIn. I’m easy to find. I post a lot there about AEO and marketing, or they can email me directly at [email protected].
Linda:
That’s awesome. Thank you, Jenna. Well, thank you for listening to the B2B Brand180 Podcast today. Hopefully you received some great insight and if you like what you heard, please hit like, share, or subscribe. And again, I’m Linda Fanaras, and I’ll see you next time.
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In this episode of B2B Brand180, Linda welcomes Ian Baer, founder of Sooth, to explore the impact of emotional engagement in B2B marketing.
Ian brings a wealth of experience from his leadership roles across various major brands and discusses how tapping into emotional drivers can significantly enhance brand strategies. The discussion also explores the shifting landscape of the B2B sales journey, emphasizing its departure from traditional linear models to more complex, customer-centric approaches. Tune in to learn more about the interconnectedness of branding, marketing, and sales in the B2B sector.
More about Ian Baer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianbaer and Sooth https://www.soothbetold.com/
You can follow Linda at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindafanaras/
and visit Millennium Agency at https://www.linkedin.com/company/millagency/
Linda Fanaras:
Hi, I’m Linda Fanaras, host of B2B Brand 180 Podcast and CEO of Millennium Agency. And today it’s where we’re going to talk all about branding and growth strategies and ways to help your business grow. But before I get started, I just want to take a minute to thank our audience for listening. And if you like what you hear today, please like, share, or subscribe. So today I am very excited to bring in Ian Baer. He’s the founder of Soothe. He’s has spent his career helping major brands in leadership roles, including publicist, TBWA, rap and many others. And he’ll touch on this shortly after. He, his experience spans from almost every business and consumer marketing category. Working with Verizon, Samsung, American Express, Adobe, JP Morgan, Chase, and others. So, welcome Ian, and thanks for coming to the B2B Brand 180 podcast today.
Ian Baer:
Thank you, Linda. Thanks for having me. I’m excited. it’s great to have you. Gosh, you just went through a laundry list of some of my all time favorite clients there. So that’s
Linda Fanaras:
awesome. Well, let’s get started with a quick introduction about you. I’ll turn it over to you. Tell us a little bit about yourself that I maybe didn’t cover yet. And we’ll get started with some questions to help our audience today. Sounds
Ian Baer:
good. Well, I like to say that I did every job you can do in the agency world. I spent 35 years. Working for some of the biggest agencies in the world. I was president of three agencies. I was chief strategy officer, three agencies. I had a seven year run as a chief creative officer. So I, wore all those hats and when I ran out of things to do in the agency world, I pivoted out about two years ago to start sooth, which is a marketing insights platform and consultancy. That’s focused on helping brands connect with the emotional needs of people who buy from them, both business and consumer.
Linda Fanaras:
That’s awesome. Because we definitely need that emotional connection these days. And I have to give you, I have to give you kudos if you’ve been working in the ad space for all those years, you must have some serious stamina.
Ian Baer:
Well, you know what? I love the business. I always say I feel bad for people who don’t love what they do. I’ve had the good fortune now for decades to be able to do something I really enjoy to, to build my craft. And really in a lot of ways, you know, the company that I started is just codifying. The unique way I’ve had of doing things all along. So it’s, this is still a labor of love, despite the fact that. Yeah. It also keeps the lights on. Yeah.
Linda Fanaras:
so why exactly did you leave the agency space to start your own company? Was there something that sort of jolted you into a new direction?
Ian Baer:
I read an article, I think those of us who, who try to stay well informed and maybe a little ahead of the game in the industry, every now and then you read something that really makes you step back and changes your perspective. And in, I think it was 2016, I read an article in the Harvard business review. That was called the new science of customer emotion. And for a long time, I had preached the value of emotional connection to the clients I’ve worked with, but it was always this battle of, well, that sounds like a warm, fuzzy thing. But, you know, I’m all about results and this was the first time there was a really well developed white paper that showed the ROI potential behind emotional connection. And as time went on and the work I was doing with clients, that became my obsession to help clients find a unique connection to their customers purely on the basis of their emotional motivation. And eventually I actually developed that into a scalable, repeatable scientific method. We have a patent pending now, and that’s one of the reasons I started Sooth is everything is now driven off this platform of being able to predict the emotional needs of customers based on Data that’s readily available in the market.
Linda Fanaras:
That’s great because I think what happens with a lot of corporations is that they’re focused on their product, you know, they’re focused on their company and they’re talking about their, their feature, their features and even their benefits and. Their benefits do not line up with that necessarily that emotional connection that we talk about. And I like to look at the example of FedEx, because I think when they first launched, they did a great job with their positioning on, on making that saying, Hey, you know, overnight delivery guaranteed. I mean, that immediately, I mean, the minute you hear those few words, you have an emotional connection with that brand and that you know, you’re going to get this guarantee and they’re going to make that delivery. So. to talk about that connection, to talk about that sort of way to be able to get to that place. Can you tell us a little bit, how do you get to that place with your platform?
Ian Baer:
Well, so again, going back to that Harvard study that, that did change my perspective, they found that out of the 34, 000 different emotions that we feel, I mean, gosh, human beings are just incredibly complex. There are only 10 that have ever proven to positively correlate to purchase behavior. And when you consider that 90 percent of all the choices we make as human beings are emotional, if you can help a brand understand not only which of those emotions come most into play for their customers, but what the hierarchy is. Then you really start to unlock something because these emotions are things like the desire to have fun, the desire to have freedom, the desire to feel like you’re connected to a community, the desire to feel safe, and we all feel all those things. But understanding when you’re coming down to a decision where you’re choosing between the thing that looks like a good time and the thing that feels safe, being able to predict which of those you’re going to choose. Consistently. Right. That is really going to unlock a lot of success for a brand. That is what we’re able to do. We actually have a method that takes those 10 emotional elements and we produce something that looks and operates a lot like a credit score for each of those. Okay. So if I know that you’re a 742 for confidence and a 356 for fun, I know how to speak to you. I know that finding ways to inspire your confidence Is going to be more appealing than, showing you what might look like it’s going to be a blast, but might not make you feel any better about what you’re doing at work every day.
Linda Fanaras:
So I’m, I’m also curious as far as your product is concerned, what do you think makes that so unique compared to some of the other, platforms that are out there or even processes that are out there by companies?
Ian Baer:
Well, there’s certainly a lot of processes at play and look, some of these things, traditional market research has been doing for years. Here’s the difference. Everything I do starts with data on everything we do starts by looking at 220 million U. S. adults and we’re able to cross reference. Thousands of different, not only demographics, but more importantly, behavioral elements, psychographics, transaction behaviors, attitudes, tendencies. And by using AI, we can crunch all of that data in days or weeks. compared to what used to take maybe three to six months worth of market research and maybe, you know, an investment of a couple of 100, 000 to get to the sort of data we can produce for clients and allow them to act on in a few weeks time. So it’s that speed to market the ability to generate the insights. before they expire. Because things do right quickly, but also the 95 percent confidence level that you get from having these massive sample sizes that we can not only query once, but we can actually maintain them as a panel and keep going back to them. Every time the brand has another question about how might this offer play or how do they look at this competitor in the market or How has let’s say the current election cycle impacted the way people are writing in my category? We can hone in on those things immediately.
Linda Fanaras:
So you can get immediate results.
Ian Baer:
Yes, it’s Basically, we’ve done what traditional quantitative and qualitative Research can deliver in a fraction of the time fraction of the cost with a much higher level of statistical accuracy because All of our results are, as I said, at a 95 percent confidence level because of the massive amounts of data that
Linda Fanaras:
we. Do you think that this is a product that’s great for agencies, corporations, marketing, departments, who would this be ideal for both?
Ian Baer:
We’ve applied it so many different ways. You know, the funny thing is when you start a company. That essentially is doing the sort of work that hasn’t been done before. You have some perceptions from day one at the beginning. I said, well, I think we’ll probably be a great secret ingredient for agencies and pitches. I think we’ll help brands looking for an edge maybe in positioning. But what we have found is in one example, we worked with a pharmaceutical company to help them identify the emotional needs. of a base of suffers of a disease that most people don’t even know they have. So because this population is not diagnosed, not identified, there is no third party data available. It’s hard to even recruit a research panel, but we could look at things like symptom profiles, how much people have visited certain types of specialists, and actually convene a panel of sufferers. Who haven’t even been diagnosed for one of our clients in the tech space, we were able to help them identify an entirely new B to B business model to reposition their technology solutions in a, in a different way, differentiate them from much larger players in the market. So, so we’ve done everything from brand positioning work all the way down to like very precise. Social media strategies that that map to not only what the audience you want to reach is doing in social, but platform by platform exactly which activities they’re performing there. So we could map it. Almost like a playbook and say, here’s exactly how to spend your money to have outsized impact with your target.
Linda Fanaras:
you know, over the years, have you actually seen the lines between the B2C market and the B2B market blur, or do you still see them as being separated? How do you?
Ian Baer:
How do you view that? I think they blurred dramatically. You know, I, I think the Amazon effect Mm-Hmm. five years ago, we were still mostly talking about how consumer brands were gonna keep up with that, right? But what has happened, and especially the impact of the pandemic where suddenly. People are, they’re sitting in the same chair in the same room and, and seamlessly shifting from I’m a CFO, now I’m a dad, now I’m a, you know, a car enthusiast and, and, and there’s no compartmentalization of life anymore. So, people increasingly have had the same expectations for everything. to work like Amazon for everything to work as easily as, as their mobile phone. And there’s no longer that expectation or, or forgiveness that things work differently in the business world. People crave and want and will use brands. that make it easy for them to do business with them and make them feel understood as human beings. Even when we’re making business decisions, we’re not making decisions as companies. We’re making decisions as humans, whether you’re a business of one or you work for a company of 50, 000 people. It always comes down to people making decisions based on what they need from that choice. And I think in that respect, a lot of ways, I don’t think we’re operating in a world of B2B and B2C, as much as it’s, we like to say B2I, it’s brands to individuals. That’s really the way marketing works today,
Linda Fanaras:
that that I agree with, but I do wonder, you know, because when you are talking to different target markets, whether you’re talking to a stay at home dad, or you’re talking to the CEO of a fortune 500 company depending on what role they’re in at the time that you’re actually have that touch point, you do need to communicate to them in that most effective way. And how are you able to achieve that? And are you able to achieve that?
Ian Baer:
what we do when we build out our audience models, we don’t really look at marketing targets. We like to look at whoever brand is communicating with as an audience. They are there to consume content, to consume experiences, to have their needs met. So when we overlay filters that are specific to somebody’s professional function, you can really see that shift. in their priorities. And so if I’m looking at somebody who, yes, if I didn’t identify this person as the CEO of an agency, I might just think she was a mom, but once I’m able to overlay other factors, it’s almost like, you know, that I exam or it’s a filter and a filter and a filter. And when I start to see her now in that professional mode, based on the industry websites, she’s interacting with based on following leaders in her industry and social media. Based on the sorts of information and experiences she seeks out, we can actually measure that shift in emotional priorities. We can see, oh, when this same person moves into business decision making mode, actually her need for security doubles her desire for freedom. Becomes greatly decreased. So we can watch these things ever flow based on the transient nature of somebody navigating through these many different roles. We all
Linda Fanaras:
That’s great insight, actually. Awesome. So before I get on to the next question, I just want to take a moment and thank our audience for listening in today. And if you like what you are hearing, please feel free to like, share or subscribe. Let’s talk about the sales journey a little bit, because that has so much changed over the last, whatever, 10, 15 years. What impact do you think it’s actually had on brands and in the space and especially in the B2B space.
Ian Baer:
Well, let’s start with this. It’s it’s no longer linear. I get very uncomfortable when I see people focus too much on traditional sales funnels or linear journeys. This shows somebody moving from You know, a certain stage of awareness to an identified need to engagement. The reality is now, especially because of the advent of social media, especially because there’s so much really in the B2B space now commercially oriented content that can motivate people to buy. Almost instantly. You’re seeing people look at software solutions, for example, that, you know, they might look at a 30 second video that plays on LinkedIn and they have gone from pre awareness to at the very least a qualified lead, maybe even to a purchaser in as much time as it takes to click their corporate card. into a sales window. So I think social commerce has been a great accelerant. It’s another one of those things that was dominating for the past few years in the consumer space. And now we are really seeing it ramp up, especially For smaller businesses, independent business people who just need to make decisions quickly, get valuable tools and resources that augment what they can do on their own, everything from, you know, AI assistance to enabled calendar tools and, and, and this grab and go mentality that now exists. around business to business tech has people jumping multiple layers of a funnel, right? At the same time, it’s not linear. People go forward, people go backward, people socialize certain decisions so they might spin out into this influence loop and then dive back in and try to manage somebody through a typical. Awareness to lead to qualified lead. You’re going to lose that opportunity before you figure out what to do with that person. The, the speed is just a major factor in a way. It hasn’t been in the past.
Linda Fanaras:
I always. struggled with that customer journey process and strategy, because in order to technically, if I’m going to market you in and I’m going to technically take you from step one to step two, right through the funnel. It’s not that easy because to your point, you know, there’s a lot of emotion behind that. And if you don’t have the actual emotional components that drive a person’s decision making. That’s right. What’s what’s the point, right?
Ian Baer:
Understanding what they need in the moment, you know, one of my all time favorite statistics was one that Forrester published a few years back where they said 95 percent of business decision makers will choose the brand that meets their needs in the moment. So if you’re not meeting their need in the moment, you may ultimately have the best solution, the best story, the best product at the best price. But if somebody else understood that prospect in their moment of need you’ll never get to meet that person,
Linda Fanaras:
So, let me ask you a question about Gen Z do you think B2B marketers should be a little
Ian Baer:
concerned? I don’t think they should be concerned. I think they should be paying attention Because it’s still a little too easy for business to business marketers to say, well, Gen Z, you know, the oldest ones, they’re still only in their mid twenties. They’re not a major force in the business space yet. That’s not true. One in five members of Gen Z is making a six figure income. They are moving into dominance in the business world almost faster than people can keep up with. And because they are not just digital natives. They are social natives. They are used to doing things differently. They also don’t relate to the typical one on one selling process that a lot of us associate with marketing in the B2B space. They’re used to doing everything through electronic means, through social media, buying from people they’ve never met. They have an entirely different comfort level in the way they navigate content and experiences. So it’s really easy to write them off and say, well, you know, they’re selfie obsessed and they’re, oh yeah. But a lot of them now are making manager or director level decisions. in businesses that are buying from people listening to this podcast right now. Right. And it’s important that everyone understands that Gen Z is not only different, but they have an outsized influence on the older generations to an extent we have not seen in the past because their grasp of technology. is so innate. We’re seeing Gen Z actually changed the way Millennials and Gen Xers and boomers are getting things right day to day. You know, people at my age. I mean, I’m in my fifties. If you’re of my generation, you remember, like the first time somebody brought home a piece of new technology, like who taught you how to use a VCR? You know, right, right. Probably taught you how to use a computer for the first time. It was always somebody older. It doesn’t work that way anymore. Now it’s MZ teaching everyone how everything works. So I don’t think it’s a watch out. I think it’s a pay attention. Because the influence they’re going to have on the way commerce works in the next few years is going to be eye opening.
Linda Fanaras:
That’s a great takeaway, I think. So question, if you were to start, or if the CMO is out there and they’re starting in the B2B space, where, where should they begin? let’s say they’re either walking into something that either exists or they’re starting with a clean slate. Any recommendations to that
Ian Baer:
CMO? It’s a challenging time to be a CMO. I mean, it has been for quite a while, but somehow I think there’s a level of urgency that exists today that, again, so much of it is about speed. It kind of takes me back to whenever I’ve interviewed candidates to work in a strategy role, in a leadership role, Very often I give them a scenario and the scenario would be, I would serve up a business problem for one of our clients or, you know, a potential business problem and say, so if you had to solve this, tell me how you’d start and there was really only ever one right answer for me. which was, it had to begin with understanding what customers want. I don’t care if the brand has a competitive problem. I don’t care if the brand has a pricing problem. I don’t care if it has a material sourcing problem. The reality is if you don’t begin by understanding. why somebody is buying and what they need. You can’t possibly solve their problems. You can’t possibly be a successful marketer. So if I was stepping into and I was very close to a CMO role before I decided to start suit, everything in my mind was I really need to understand how people buy in this category, what they want, what they’re getting from this brand and what they’re getting from competitors that they’re not right. Very often your greatest competition might not even be one that you’ve named. It’s either one who’s going to solve a problem that no one knows they have yet, or sometimes the thing you’re battling is inertia. Right. You know, I remember years ago working with a major healthcare brand that was starting a chain of urgent care clinics. And they presented me with all this information and said, well, we think. X percent of our competition comes from emergency rooms and Y percent of our competition comes from private practice position of physicians. And when I dug in deep, I said, no, actually, in the urgent care space, your number one competitor is people doing nothing. Your number one competitor is it’s just a cold. It’s just a pain. I don’t have to see the doctor and looking at it that way versus figuring out how to get people to come here versus going to the emergency room changed everything strategically, right? What made our efforts so successful? So as a CMO, I would always begin with who’s buying in my category. How’s the brand meeting their needs today? And how can their needs be better met? Right. And I would invest in learning as much as I could about the customer before doing anything else. I think probably the only other thing I would say in the B Space specifically is also understand what’s happening in the field. Because very often in a brand marketing role, For a B2B company, unless it’s a, a smaller organization, there’s another layer between you and the ultimate buyer, right? And understanding what is happening between the brand and that end experience where somebody is signing a contract or, or issuing a po. It is critical because there’s a lot that gets broken in that chain. So my first 30 days on the job, I’m understanding the customers and I’m understanding the last mile of the SAS process.
Linda Fanaras:
Now onto your point, understanding their emotional state as well. Their behaviors, their characteristics, their, attitudes and everything that goes with that. So let me get to my last question to you. What do you think the biggest mistake B2B marketers make today?
Ian Baer:
there are a lot of mistakes. And, and, you know, we, we could go through a list. I think we just spoke about one of the really important ones, which comes back to understanding, but I think on a tactical level. Where more marketers go wrong than anything else is there is such a hyper focus on that moment of truth on the moment somebody is ready to sign on the moment somebody is ready to say yes. we’ve listened to companies that sell data for a living. They would have everything, but only knowing who you are at the moment you’re ready to buy. is leaving about 90 to 95 percent of the sales opportunity on the table. So I would say the biggest mistake I see brands make is too much of a focus on what somebody determined is the moment of truth as opposed to understanding who’s buying from you and what motivates them.
Linda Fanaras:
And I love what you talked about when you talked about that sort of funnel and customer journey, because people do, they can make a decision in a nanosecond and all those, that funnel process isn’t even in play. So it’s, well, I’m
Ian Baer:
thinking that you’re a brand that has invested millions of dollars. Building brand equity right and it all goes up in smoke in 20 seconds of a social media Interaction what have you been spending your money on
Linda Fanaras:
Exactly. Now, great point. Thank you, Ian. That’s great. So, I just want to take a moment and thank Ian. That was great. I’d love to hear your insights on obviously soothe and, and taking that emotional angle with marketing. I think that’s really important. And often that’s an oversight. I also wanted to thank the audience for listening in to B2B Brand 180 podcast. And I hope you found some of the insights and strategies shared today to be valuable. So what’s the best way to get in touch with you? Ian?
Ian Baer:
Oh you can, LinkedIn’s always a great way to find me. Or visit our website which is soothbetold, S O O T H B E T O L D dot com. You can shoot me an email at hello at soothbetold dot com. Love talking shop happy to answer any questions and, and look forward to hearing from people. Thank you. And Linda, thanks so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Linda Fanaras:
Absolutely. thanks for coming on. So again, I’m Linda Fanaras, host of the B2B Brand 180 podcast and CEO of Millennium Agency. You can feel free to visit us at mill. agency or lindafanaras dot com. Or again, you can connect with me on LinkedIn as well. And thanks again for listening to the B2B Brand 180 podcast
.
In this episode of B2B Brand180, Linda interviews Jarie Bolander, an expert in B2B storytelling. Jarie offers insights and strategies for transforming B2B brands with compelling storytelling. He explores the power of emotional appeal, logical progression, and credibility in persuasive storytelling, as well as the significance of aligning narratives across various platforms and marketing materials. Additionally, Jarie presents a valuable framework for weaving storytelling into B2B branding and strategy.
More about Jarie:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jariebolander/ and https://decisioncounsel.com/
You can follow Linda at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindafanaras/
and visit Millennium Agency at https://www.linkedin.com/company/millagency/
Linda Fanaras:
Hi, I’m Linda Fanaras, host of B2B Brand 180 Podcast and CEO Millennium Agency, where we’re going to talk about branding and growth strategies. But before I start, I just want to take a moment and thank our listeners. And if you like what you hear today, feel free to like, share or subscribe to help our channel grow. And today I’m excited to bring in Jarie Bolander from Get Story Driven. He’s from San Francisco, California, and Jarie is an advocate for empowerment of minorities and females in business. And that’s always great to hear. from what I understand, he loves a locally crafted espresso, and he loves to figure out super complex things and bring them to people in a very clear and concise and compelling way. He helps bring and build more ethical, inclusive and resilient world by educating and inspiring the next generation of entrepreneurs, whether they’re 18 years old or 80. So, so welcome, Jarie. Thanks for joining in today to the B2B Brand 180 podcast. I’d love for you to start by giving us a quick introduction.
Jarie Bolander:
Sure. Thanks, Linda, for having me. Well, I mean, you covered a lot of it, which is great. Awesome.
Linda Fanaras:
Awesome. Yeah,
Jarie Bolander:
I’ve been, I’ve been doing startups better part of 30 years. Used to be an engineer, you know, so I say I’m a recovering engineer. Went to the dark side of marketing and really because of a girl usually all great story startup. And I met a girl. That’s right. I met a girl. Yeah. Her name was Jane. She was my wife. She actually passed away six years ago from leukemia. Which, you know, pretty tragic ’cause she was only 36. And, you know, she, she really got me into doing this sort of work. Now I’m at a company called Decision Council. We’re a B2B go to market strategy company in Berkeley, California. You know, we love nothing more than getting complex, long sales cycle type companies and figuring out how to grow them. You mentioned get story driven, which is something that I’ve been. Working on for the better part of six or seven years, just trying to help people tell better stories. What I’ve found is that the best story wins products democratized. tell me a story and you capture me forever. So, that’s sort of where I’m at and I’m happy to be here. I love it. This is so much fun. I can’t wait to dig in.
Linda Fanaras:
I love to talk about storytelling because I think that’s one area where sometimes. Companies struggle, they have a story, but it really needs to be framed in a way that is compelling and interesting and emotional. Otherwise, it doesn’t make that one to one connection and it’s not really that effective. So, so that’s why I am really excited for you to talk a little bit about, So how do you tell a better story for a B2B audience? How would you go about
Jarie Bolander:
that? all, all stories in business are persuasive, right? And they follow a pretty simple pattern that was first documented in the, in the Western world by a guy named Aristotle, you know, old Greek guy back in the day. And his rhetorical triangle is really the basis for all influencing all persuasive storytelling. So the first, his first kind of pillar is something called the pathos, which is the emotional appeal. So you mentioned about being emotional. People need to be. before they act. The second part is something called the Logos, which is the logical progression to get me to where I am, to where I need to be. Simple. Step one, step two, step three, right? The last part is what’s called the ethos or the credibility. Like, why should I trust you to get me to where I need to be? so all great stories of persuasion have those three components. And a lot of B2B companies tend to focus over, I say over rotate on the logical features, functions is what we do. And they mostly talk about themselves. They don’t talk about the problems they solve. They don’t talk about the opportunity. They don’t put themselves in the customer’s perspective, because if we were to talk about storytelling, the customer is the hero of the story. It’s not the company, it’s the customer, you know, as the company, you’re the mentor helping the customer, the hero. Overcome the villain to save the victim victim is right and for whatever reason and I’m have a theory on this that it’s super half baked so it’s probably not ready to share it. B2B companies don’t think that way. And my biggest struggle where I work here at Decision Council is trying to get them to shift the mindset to more narrative, emotional storytelling that solves problems for their customers, as opposed to the laundry list of things, their tool. platform buzzword bingo. We thingy. That’s
Linda Fanaras:
right. Cares. No one cares. No one cares. it’s absolutely true. And you know, you always have to look at those pain points. And when we worked with B2B companies, a lot of times they’ll say, okay, well, we have great service. Well, that’s great. I think it’s important to have great service, but how can we frame that great service in a way that’s actually emotionally connect with your audience? Because you and every other B2B company says they have great service or quality products. So how do we frame that to make it really? enticing and compelling. How do you go about tackling storytelling for some of these clients, whether they’re B2B or B2C or whatever the case may be? Do you have a framework
Jarie Bolander:
that you use? There’s the story driven framework that we talked about a little bit. So, one of the things I, I tend to do is I have this idea called the marketer six core questions. One must answer these six core questions or one does not know what the hell they’re doing, in my opinion. Right, right, right, right. Everyone’s got their thing, right? So for me, the, the, the six questions, the first question is what’s your core value? What do you, what do you actually deliver? Performance, your worldview, et cetera. The second is what’s your big idea? Why do I care? What’s your elevator pitch? What’s the thing that’s going to get me to say, Oh, tell me more. Tell me more about that. I really want to understand that. The third question is what’s called the through line. How do I get from point A to point B? So how do I And throughout the entire journey of a customer, how do I go from a prospect to a customer to an advocate? And what’s the arc? What’s the story arc? How does it connect together? A lot of times that is disconnected in a big way, as you know, right? Like I used to say, who, who thought of this, right? The next, the next one is something called the wants and needs. A want is, a want is external and need is internal. In order to get to the true need, the internal feeling, you got to get through the want, which is external. So, you know, want might be, I need to close, you know, I need to close 10 deals a week. The real need is I need to make sure that I’m making progress on towards my plan and I’ve got quality leads I can send to sales. The next one is the structure and the service. So what’s the structure of the offer and who do I service? Who’s my customer, And those go hand in hand. And then the last one is what are called requirements and conventions. What’s absolutely required for this project and what are just the general conventions. And once you’ve asked, asked and answered those market or six core questions, you can, you can then start formulating a narrative that ties it all together. And typically what we try to do is interview as many customers as we can, internal people and really try to get at the core of like, why do people care? You know, what, what, what problem are you really solving for them? And then we center the narrative around that problem Okay. Or the opportunity, right? Okay. So, if you’re a marketing company and you sell leads Right. The problem you’re solving is okay. Well, I, you know, marketing needs to give so many leads to sales Fine. Everyone needs that. But the real challenge is how do I get quality leads that sales actually likes. Right. Right. Right. Right. What’s the battle sales and marketing hate each other because here’s my marketing qualified lead and sales is like, this is total crap. Right. Right. Right. And that’s, that’s visceral. I mean, there’s not a marketer cowering in the corner somewhere that doesn’t want to have to talk to their CRO, the crappiness of their leads. Or brand building is another one. You know, how do I build a better brand? How do I get that connection? So those marketer six core questions are pretty critical. We also have a bunch of other frameworks here at decision council that we use as well, that Our going in position always is value. What am I, what problem am I solving? What opportunity can we take advantage of not whiz bang, super cool. You know, it’s not like about the company. It’s about the customer and how we can help the customer grow and thrive.
Linda Fanaras:
Yeah. Do you you know, I hate to put you on the spot, but what would be a good example of you putting together some sort of story together for a company What are the elements that you might put into something like
Jarie Bolander:
that? here at Decision Council, one of our clients is Calix. They’re a platform for broadband service providers, typically rural community focused broadband service providers. So if people that give you your internet, right, they, from a storytelling perspective, I mean, they’re a public company, you know, billion, I think they’re a billion plus star company. Great, great company with a solid vision of we want to simplify your business. Excite your subscribers so you could grow your value. And those are all outcome based stories that you can then pull on the thread. Thread. How do you excite your subscribers? Right? Oh, we give them value added. Bundles and features and offers, right? It’s not like give you five gig, 10 gig for 25 bucks or whatever. It’s what’s the value. And so their entire narrative, which you can see on their website, the one narrative that resonates really well with people is be the giant in your community, right? Instead Comcast and Amazon and all these giants, you know, that are sucking value out of your community, you can be the giant, right? And that’s powerful narrative because that gives you autonomy and authority to actually go serve your community. It’s transformative. Right. I mean, it’s like, there’s not a person that’s listening to this that wouldn’t feel something in their heartstrings like Oh, wow. That’s really cool. Mm hmm. I haven’t told you what they sell. I haven’t told you what they, I’ve told you a little bit about what they do, but I don’t know that they’ve got routers and boxes and software. You’re just like, what a great value. Yeah. What a vision.
Linda Fanaras:
I think a lot of companies, I think some companies feel like storytelling is important and others just don’t really find the value or don’t even know how to go about it. I mean, can you, I know we’ve already talked about this a little bit, but why do you think Telling a story in a clear and concise and powerful way is, it works. Why does it work?
Jarie Bolander:
It’s in our DNA. We are hard wired to resonate with a good story because that’s how we survived. I mean, you and I are talking over StreamYard because our ancestors told the best story. Hands down. Like, I don’t even know who you are, but I know your ancestors told better stories because we’re here talking to each other. They survived. We, that’s how we make sense of the world. We connect narrative together. That’s the only way we make sense of the world, data, facts, figures, those only solidify the narrative that we tell you, tell ourselves, right? That’s why you see all these people, they’re like, you know, flat earthers, this and that, like, that’s a powerful story that’s based in fact, they’re telling themselves the story. So it’s. In our DNA, it’s how we make sense of the world, it’s how we remember things, it’s how we, you know, it’s how we pass down knowledge from generation to generation and, the storytellers are the ones that change the world. It’s not the bombs, it’s not the guns, it’s the narrative, and that’s, if you want to be the next, the next level of B2B marketing, the next level of marketing, whatever you want your company to survive. Better tell better stories because the world saturated, we’re distracted, right? We just, there’s so much of coming at us that only a good story is going to get through.
Linda Fanaras:
And I agree with that completely, because I think to your point, I was just thinking about that as you were speaking about that is we have so much coming at us and you really don’t remember anything or, or all of the details necessarily, unless there’s a strong story. And that’s because there’s an emotional piece to that. It’s not just facts and figures. It’s emotional. So that’s why people really do recall stories, whether it’s about a B2B company or B2C company, or founder of a consumer based product company. And there was a passionate reason why that person did something. There’s, there’s a memory behind that. I think that that’s what companies need. Marketers particularly need to keep that So before we go to our next question, I just want to take a minute and thank our listeners today for listening in. And if you like what you hear, feel free to like, share, subscribe. So why do you think companies really need to weave once they determine what that story is and how they’re going to present it and, and what that messaging is, why is it so important to weave that into all the collateral branding and strategy and how can they make sure that they get that where it’s supposed to be in the most impactful and effective ways?
Jarie Bolander:
Well, I always like to say what’s get, what gets remembered, gets repeated. So the more clear, concise, and compelling and simple your narrative is, the more people can repeat it and the power of having, so you can either shout louder or have more people repeat your message. There’s only really only two options, right? Shouting louder doesn’t work cause it’s costly and you’re just going to get drowned out. But having multiple people repeat it with throughout your organization, your customers, the world, you know, if you’re a thought leader and so on, et cetera. Amplifies the story, amplifies the narrative. So the real challenge when it comes to integrating the narrative within all of your materials is what’s the arc? What’s the through line? What’s the, you know, what’s the nugget that you can kind of anchor on that people will remember and then repeat? Because the more it’s repeated, the more it gets through, just like anything, like, you know, repetition is what, how we learn. So It’s not easy and it’s how you align your company. So if you think about it from an alignment perspective, the best narratives align everyone in your company to a common goal. So anywhere from the janitor to the CEO can repeat the mantra, you know, like everyone knows what just do it means. Everyone knows, right. Right. You know, think different means like, cause they’re anchored in this narrative. It’s throughout all the materials. So, huh. it’s a lot of trial and error, but it starts with leadership of the company, setting the kind of the strategic vision and the anchor, you know, what’s the, what’s the big idea, like the big idea is really important piece of that your big idea should just transcend throughout all your materials in some way, repeated in some way, but generally, that’s why people have slogans, right? That’s the anchor. So hard to do. I’m not saying it’s easy, but, but vital for a line now and for message penetration.
Linda Fanaras:
So do you start with the nugget or do you start with something more complicated, like an abstract and then from the abstract, you’re building out what that are determining what that nugget is because to your point. You may use part of that, let’s say it is an abstract and it’s succinct, you maybe use part of that for collateral, for your website, for your news release footer. And that, when we speak about integrating this messaging into your materials, you need to make sure that it’s across all platforms that you’re using. But how do you decide, what’s going to go where and are you figuring out, this is the nugget, this is tier two, this is tier three, and maybe it encompasses what’s in, you know, ahead of it. I’m just curious how something like that might work,
Jarie Bolander:
I mean, maybe it does depend on the audience and what level in an organization and what level of familiarity they have with you, if someone literally is never. seeing your brand touch, doesn’t even know what it is. Then you have to start out with the most simplest explanation at the highest level. And I always think of this as sort of like a pyramid or a tier, right, to your point about tiering, right? Mm hmm. Once someone gets to know you, and they’re tell me more, then you go into more detail, so that Right. Which, which should reinforce your hypothesis. Nike would just do it. professional athletes, there’s lots of wood behind the arrow of what that means and how it shows up and performance of the people, right? So, I always like to think of You take the big idea, which is the top easily, the elevator pitch, and then you sort of, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll sort of layer down at different levels of. Specificity and different levels of detail, depending on who you’re talking to. So as an example, your homepage, you would think of it from a homepage, the homepage should be the big idea encapsulated with, with the pathos logos and the ethos literally prove to me that I should go to another page. Right, right, exactly. Right. I mean, just like you get, you know, above the fold, below the fold, whatever. Right. Like you have to really think about that. And then the other pages are more details that reinforce that. So if it’s someone wants to figure out your product. Your solution, or it’s by role or by industry, or it’s a use case or it’s a case study. That’s the detail that they have to find naturally once they’ve, once they’re convinced. Mm-Hmm. by your big idea and, and you’ve proven, you know, your, your, your pathos, logos, and ethos that you’re worth the time to consider. But all of those materials, it, it’s basically proves your homepage or proves your big idea. Mm-Hmm. prove to me that this is right. Okay. This is how we prove it it’s the art of it is trying to figure out The CEO is going to need different proof than the, you know, engineer, Or the director. And so you need to really ladder it up in different ways you’ve got entry points to all of this material and all of these things that are just natural entry points. And that’s hard to do. That’s, that’s, that’s non trivial, but if you have a solid, big idea. Your homepage is very, you know, is like tells the narrative and proves that Pathos, Logos, and Ethos. You will then find, Oh, I need to prove this for the CEO. I need to prove this for asset managers. I need to prove this for this industry. I need this case study. And then it just sort of trickles down and you build it up this sort of body of work, so to speak, improving your case, you know, improving your case.
Linda Fanaras:
No, that makes sense. That’s great. That’s awesome. So before we wrap up, I’m just curious, do you have any key insights that you’d like to share with our audience today?
Jarie Bolander:
A couple of things when you are figuring out your narrative and your story, it’s best to be, to go down really specific. So specificity equals universality is a very common storytelling technique. Which means get as much detail as you can going down, like go down the rabbit hole and then do that a bunch of times. And then so you can boil back up to what’s the real idea, right? So that’s one very important, that means talking to customers, getting case studies, which a lot of B2B companies hate talking to customers, getting case studies, but they’re very important. The second is be as simple as possible. And I always like to say. Explain it to your grandmother. If your grandmother can understand it, then you’re, then you’re doing well. If she can’t try again, because in this world, it doesn’t matter how sophisticated your product is. Doesn’t matter how smart your end customer is. They’re saturated with shit. And you just cannot, you cannot get the message through unless it’s simple, clear, concise, compelling with a lot of compassion and just a lot of, you know, thoughtfulness is going to get you past the barrier, right? It doesn’t matter if you’re selling a medical device or you’re selling a shoe. Exactly the same. We are all irrational, unreasonable, crazy, nutty. We’re human. We’re messy. Huh.
Linda Fanaras:
well, thank you. So that was fantastic. Thanks for sharing, you know, sharing your insights today on storytelling. I think that’s important for companies to take that into consideration when they’re building their brands. So I’d love for you to share how people can get in touch with you.
Jarie Bolander:
Yeah. So you can go over to get story driven. com, which is the story driven stuff. I’m on LinkedIn. Just, you know, Jarie Bolander. I do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn. You can check out decision council. com, which is where I work right now. We do a lot of great stuff in the B2B space, especially strategy, go to market. You know, we’re, we’re one of the people that get, you know, we get storytelling for complex things, which is always fun. reach out, connect on LinkedIn and we’d love to, love to hear your thoughts on storytelling and. What you’re up to. That’s
Linda Fanaras:
awesome. Great. Well, thank you for tuning in to the B2B Brand 180 podcast today. We hope you find that the insights and strategies shared were valuable to you. And again, I’m Linda Fanaras, host of the podcast and also CEO of Millennium Agency. And feel free to visit us at mill, M I L L dot agency, or you can go to lindafanaras. com or just simply connect with me on LinkedIn. Thanks again for tuning in.
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